Mount st helens carbon dating

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Members Portal. Young Earthers point to an infamous dating error as evidence that the Earth is only as old as the Bible says. Skeptoid Podcast March 24, Podcast transcript Subscribe. Today we're going to point our skeptical eye at one of the key players in the debate between geologists and Young Earthers over the age of the Earth.

In June ofDr. Steven Austin took a sample of dacite from the new lava dome inside Mount St. Helens, the volcano in Washington state. The dacite sample was known to have been formed from a magma flow, and so its actual age was an established fact. Austin submitted the sample for radiometric dating to an independent laboratory in Cambridge, Massachusetts. The came back dating the rock toyears old, with certain compounds within it as old as 2. Austin's conclusion is that radiometric dating is uselessly unreliable. Critics found that Dr. Austin chose a dating technique that is inappropriate for the sample tested, and charged that he deliberately used the wrong experiment in order to promote the idea that science fails to show that the Earth is older than the Bible claims.

Yet the experiment remains as one of the cornerstones of the Young Earth movement. Of most people who have heard of this incident before, that's probably about the total depth of what they've heard. And there's pretty good reason for this: Geology dating is pretty complicated, and if you look at Dr. Austin's paper or at any scholarly criticism of it, your eyes will quickly glaze over from the extraordinary detail and intricacy.

So I thought this would be a great place to point Skeptoid's skeptical eye, and see how much of the chaff we can cut through to see what the bare facts of the case really are. Obviously both sides of this debate have agendas to promote, and that means that any summary you're likely to read was probably motivated by one agenda or the other. Let's begin with a Mount st helens carbon dating understanding of the radiometric dating technique used, K-Ar, or potassium-argon. This dating technique depends on the fact that the radioactive isotope of potassium, 40 K, naturally decays into other elements, as do all unstable radioactive elements.

There are two ways that this happens to 40 K. About 89 percent of the time, a neutron inside the 40 K undergoes beta decay, in which the neutron decays into a proton and an electron. This gain of a proton turns the potassium into calcium.

Mount st helens carbon dating

But about 11 percent of the time, an extra proton inside the 40 K captures one of its electrons and merges with it, turning the proton into a neutron and a neutrino, and converting the potassium into argon. In both events, the atomic mass remains unchanged, but the of protons changes, thus turning the element from one to another. This happens to 40 K everywhere in the universe that it exists, and at the same rate, which is a half-life of 1. This means that if you have atoms of 40 K, 1. You'll also have 83 argon atoms, and calcium atoms. If I take a sample and measure an argon to potassium ratio ofI know that this sample is 2.

However, all of these s are probabilities, not absolutes. You need to have a statistically meaningful amount of argon before your result would be considered ificant. Below about 10, yearspotassium-argon are not ificant; there's not yet enough argon created. In addition, the initial amount of 40 K that you started with is never measured directly; instead, it is assumed to always be. This has a standard deviation, so it also contributes to the margin of error.

Mount st helens carbon dating

So when my result says the sample was 2. The bell curve of probable age starts at about 1. So whether you call it an exact science or not is a matter of linguistics. Although the exact age can't be known, the probabilities can be exactly calculated. Since Dr. Austin's sample was known to have solidified inits argon content was clearly well Mount st helens carbon dating the threshhold where an amount of argon sufficiently useful for dating could have been present.

And even that threshhold applies to only the most sensitive detection equipment. Potassium-argon dating is done by destructively crushing and heating the sample and spectrally analyzing the resulting Mount st helens carbon dating. The equipment in use at the time at the lab employed by Dr. Austin, Geocron Laboratorieswas of a type sensitive enough to only detect higher concentrations of argon gas.

Geocron clearly stated that their equipment was only capable of accurate when the sample contained a concentration of argon high enough to be consistent with 2, years or older. And so, by any standard, it was scientifically meaningless for Dr. Austin to apply Geocron's potassium-argon dating to his sample of dacite known to be only six years old.

But let's ask the obvious question. If there wasn't yet enough argon in the rock to be detectable, and the equipment that was used was not sensitive enough to detect any argon, how was enough argon found that such old were returned? There are two possible reasons that the old dates were returned. The first has to do with the reason Geocron's equipment was considered useful only for high concentrations of argon. There would always be a certain amount of argon inside the mass spectrometer left over from experiments. If the sample being tested is old enough to have ificant argon, this leftover contamination would be statistically inificant; so this was OK for Geocron's normal purposes.

But for a sample with little or no argon, it would produce a falsely old result. This was undoubtedly a factor in Dr. Austin's. The second possibility is that so-called "excess argon" could have become trapped in the Mount St. Helens magma. This is where we find the bulk of the confusing complexity in Austin's paper and in those of his critics. The papers all go into great detail describing the various ways that argon-containing compounds can be incorporated into magma. These include the occlusion of xenoliths and xenocrysts, which are basically contaminants from existing old rocks that get mixed in with the magma; and phenocrysts, which are crystals of all sorts of different minerals that form inside the rock in different ways depending on how quickly the magma cools.

Helens dacite. Summarizing both arguments, Dr. Austin claims that xenoliths and xenocrysts were completely removed from the samples before testing, and that the wrong are due to phenocrysts, which form to varying degrees in all magma, and thus effectively cast doubt on all potassium-argon testing done throughout the world.

It's important to note that his arguments are cogent and are based on sound geology, and are often mischaracterized by skeptics. He did not simply use the wrong kind of radiometric dating as an ignorant blunder. He was deliberately trying to illustrate that even a brand-new rock would show an ancient age, even when potassium-argon dating was properly used.

Austin's critics charge that he ignored the probable likelihood that the limitations of Geochron's equipment s for thejust as Geochron warned. They also charge that he likely did not remove all the xenoliths and xenocrysts from his samples.

Mount st helens carbon dating

However, neither possibility can be known for sure. Certainly there is no doubt that the test was far outside the useful parameters of potassium-argon dating, but whereas critics say this invalidates theAustin concludes that his certify that the test is universally useless.

Mount st helens carbon dating

If we allow both sides to have their say, and do not bring a bias preconditioning us to accept whatever one side says and to look only for flaws in the Mount st helens carbon dating side, a fair conclusion to make is that both sides make valid points. Austin does indeed identify a real potential weakness in potassium-argon dating.

However he is wrong that his phenocrysts constitute a fatal flaw in potassium-argon dating ly unknown to geology. In fact, the implications of phenocrysts were already well understood. Yes they are one of the variables, and yes, in some samples they do push the error bars.

However, the errors they introduce are in the range of a standard deviation, they are not nearly adequate to explain errors as gross as three or more orders of magnitude, which would be necessary to explain the discrepancy between the measured age of rocks and the Biblical age of the Earth. Such variables are also a principal reason that geologists never rely on just one dating method, with no checks or balances. That would be pretty reckless. For most rocks, multiple types of radiometric dating are appropriate; and in practice, multiple samples would always be tested, not just one like Austin used.

In combination, these tests give a far more complete and accurate picture of a rock's true age than just a single potassium-argon test could. In addition, stratigraphic and paleomagnetic data can often contribute to the picture as well. From many decades of such experience, geologists have excellent data that guides proper usage of each of these tools, and they don't include gross misuse of potassium-argon dating.

Mount st helens carbon dating

What Austin did was to exploit a known caveat in radiometric dating; dramatically illustrate it with a high-profile test using the public's favorite volcano, Mount St. Helens; and sensationalize the in a paper that introduces nothing new to geologists, but that impresses laypeople with its detailed scientific language. Occasionally scientists do actually make huge discoveries that everyone else in their field had always missed, but such claims are wrong far more often than they're right; and Dr.

Austin and his finding that radiometric dating has always been useless is a perfect example. Please with any corrections or feedback.

Mount st helens carbon dating

Cite this article: Dunning, B. Helens Lava Dome? Skeptoid Media, 24 Mar Austin, S. Helens Volcano. Dalrymple, G. Dosseto, A. Hoboken: Wiley, Henke, K. Australian Skeptics Inc. Walker, M. Quaternary Dating Methods. West Sussex, U. Wiens, R.

Mount st helens carbon dating

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30 Years Later, the Lessons from Mount St. Helens